Author Topic: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.  (Read 1605 times)

SignsByScott

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Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« on: March 14, 2014, 07:32:45 pm »
I am in need of trying to locate someone to help me make a template for a series of objects I want to mass produce.  I have a supplier that makes one template for items I make (see first attachment)  The template is made of MDF with a very thin rubber backing to provide a leveling aspect when the name badges are put under the press, then an aluminum sheet that is the actual template that is cut out for the badges.  The badges are made of FRP and there is a piece of paper that has the ink image transfer on it that is placed on faced down on the top of the template assembly. 

What I need is one that is made similar to the suppliers template but where the 2x3 cut outs are I need them to be just over 1".  The disks that I press are 1" + .00" - .005".  I need the holes to be 1.01" and centered as I have the drawing.  It needs to be very precise hence the reason I am looking here.  You members are very precise in what they do, so figured why not look for the experts in making things.  I am thinking that the template I am wanting to make can be done without the aluminum but the heat/press is at 400 degrees for about 2 minutes to transfer the image to the aluminum disk.  So I am not sure if there is anything that can be put on the wood to make it withstand that heat/pressure.  So I am thinking that the aluminum is going to be the only way to go with the rubber backer for insulation.  Now the disks are about .030" so the aluminum would have to be .010 or so I am thinking to make it work. 

Thank you and your members for any help or direction to go to make this happen.

Offline EIEIO

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Re: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 11:16:27 pm »
Can you provide a link to a description of the manufacturing process? I thought I had it figured out until I hit your last sentence saying that the "...disks are about .030" so the aluminum would have to be .010 or so...". Is the template cutting the FRP like a die, or is it just holding the FRP disks in a precise location while ink transfers from paper to disk? Does the press cause any shape change in the FRP like a mold? Is the paper under the FRP between the Aluminum and MDF or is it on top of the FRP (but upside-down to get the ink to transfer to the disk)? Is that 400 degF or 400 degC? 400 degC would set wood or MDF on fire.

 
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SignsByScott

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Re: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 01:44:26 am »
Let me try to be a little more clear.  The one that I have for the FRP the aluminum is about .030.  The FRP is about 1/16" (.0625) so obviously is much higher than the base with aluminum on top.

What I am using for the next project is aluminum that is .030", so the thickness of the aluminum has to be .010 or so.   Here is a 'side view' of what I am looking at (see attached)

The layers of the item you have right.  In the FRP example it is .75" MDF, then on top of that is a .0625" rubbing backing that is used as a leveling agent to make the items level when pressed by the heat press.  Above the Rubber backing is the .030 aluminum plate that has the cut outs for the FRP to sit in.  As the picture in the first post shows you can see the cut outs.  Above the FRP is the transfer paper that has the inked impression on it.  As you surmised, the ink side is face down so it is in direct contact with the FRP.  This whole assembly is placed on a heat press.  The top of the inked paper actually gets an additional layer of a clean piece of paper to prevent the ink from "blowing out" and onto the heated plantain surface.  The top plantain of the heat press, which is at 400?F, is pressed onto the top layer of paper pressing the paper, the inked paper, and the FRP.  The FRP is what actually gets the full pressure as the FRP stick above the aluminum slightly so there is no real pressure on all of the paper, only where the FRP is located.  (Does that make sense?)   
The press is locked into place for about 1 minute 30 seconds. 
After the pressing time, the pressure is released. 
Once the pressure is released, the top layers of paper are removed and the FRP is taken out of the holding tray (aluminum sheet) to cool. 

What I am looking to do is to replace the .030 aluminum holding tray/alignment tray/placement holder, and replace it with a .010" piece of aluminum (with the cutout/design in the prior post) so the 1" x .030 aluminum disks that I want to press (in place of the FRP) will be able to be pressed as the FRP was. 

Does that help?

Thank you very much for your help.

Scott

 

Offline EIEIO

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Re: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 10:47:13 am »
That helps some, but the image still leaves a big question.

So the next project is to transfer ink from paper (was the paper was printed in a laser printer?) to Aluminum (not FRP) disks that are 0.030" thick and 1 + 0.000, -0.005" diameter. The transfer happens when heat and pressure are applied to squeeze the paper against the disks. You did not say, but I assume that the reason for the 0.010" thick aluminum template is to hold the 0.030" Al disks in place while the heat & pressure are applied, keeping the disks aligned with the print on the paper. Is there also something that holds the paper in place so it does not move relative to the disks?

In your image, you show the 0.030" disks sitting above the 0.010" plate (similar to the image for the FRP). Aren't the disks supposed to be down in the holes in the plate?

You asked for holes in the plate that are 1.010" diameter. Would it matter if the holes were square rather than round, so long as they held the disk in a fixed location?

The 0.010" thickness would pretty much eliminate anything other than metal - Al, Brass, or steel - for the alignment plate as designed. But could you instead use a 1" Fostner bit to cut a 0.010" or so deep round impression into a thicker piece of high temp fiberglass (or maybe a plate of your FRP) as the register? Maybe put a smaller hole (1/4"?) through the center of the impression so you can poke the disks out after the ink has set?

You didn't give center-to-center dimensions on the 1" holes. How accurate must those dimension be held? I'm thinking it would not be hard to make a pattern like a sheet of graph paper where the intersections are the hole centers, use that to mark the centers with a punch, then use the Fostner bit to drill the shallow hole. That probably give alignment to about +/- 0.010". But if you need center-to-center location within just a few thousandths you'll need a vertical milling machine with a 2-D table. Any machine shop would have one, but then you may be back at the cost of the original plate.

Would the Fostner bit in FRP work for alignment? Can you live with the manual alignment possible by the 1st method?       
EX-21 arrived 2-1-2013!
Porter-Cable PCB370SS in the corner
Lancaster Ohio
Ray Hayes - RMHayes@RMHayes.US
www.RMHayes.US

SignsByScott

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Re: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 12:07:54 pm »
Eieio,
Your assumption is correct.  The paper is used as the vessel to transfer the dye type ink, from the inkjet style printer (can be done with laser as well with different setup).  The dye type ink is actually a solid that goes through the inkjet printer.  The ink is unique in that when heated it does not go through the normal phases of matter.  Solid, Liquid, Gas.  As with water, starts in solid form as ice, then when heated goes to liquid form, water; then with the continuation of heat goes to steam, thus passing all three phases of matter.  This special formulated dye does not go through the liquid state.  It starts off as a solid, ink on the page, then when the heat is applied, and the dye gets to about 400?F, the solid dye goes from solid to a gas.  And as we know gas takes more volume/space than a solid.  With this matter change to a gas, the dye expands which requires more space from its original solid state of matter.  Just like ice to water, to steam.

The substrate, in this case the FRP or AL disks, are all coated with a thin film of polyester which has its own unique properties.  At about 380?F the polyester will open up (release its surface tension) and start to expand.  This now produces space from the very tight bonds of the cool polyester. 

What happens then with the use of the heated press is that the expanding gas from the dye has nowhere to go but into the opening/expansion of the polyester.  The gas dye then fills the voids of the expanding polyester.  The pressure is what keeps the gas in the direction of the expanding polyester.  The gas dye then attaches itself to the polyester and fills the voids produced by the heated and expanding polyester.  This takes approximately 30 seconds up to 20 minutes depending on the substrate.  Not to confuse you more, but for example, felt book markers take only about 30 seconds to complete the process because the felt is very loose material to start with, whereas, a ceramic mug which is much thicker and denser requires about 5:30 to complete in a mug press.  In a convection oven with a pressure band can take up to 20 minutes.  So depending on the method used, the time varies.  I have a mug press which concentrates the heat in a small area and applies the presser directly to the mug much better than the convection oven/pressure band system does.  But I also have dog dishes which will not fit in the specialized mug press so the convection oven and pressure band is the only way to complete the transfer.  But I digress...

To answer the question of the paper, yes the paper is held in place by special heat tape.  It is aligned with the edges of the base plate (MDF in the suppliers special made template/holder).  The whole assembly with the taped down transfer paper is then put in to the press and the process begins. 

Your Question:
In your image, you show the 0.030" disks sitting above the 0.010" plate (similar to the image for the FRP). Aren't the disks supposed to be down in the holes in the plate?
A:  Yes the AL disks are about .020" above the .010 plate.  Sorry the drawing was not that clear.  The bottom of the AL disk and the plate all rest on the same surface which would be zero.  Then the .010 plate would cover 1/3 of the .030 disk allowing the upper 2/3 of the disk to be exposed so the transfer paper sits on top of the disks.  The .020 space is used to help prevent heat transfer and heat loss from the .010 plate, to make the transfer complete correctly.

Q: You asked for holes in the plate that are 1.010" diameter. Would it matter if the holes were square rather than round, so long as they held the disk in a fixed location?
A:  No it does not matter at all.  The purpose of the tray/holder is just to hold the disks in place while the process is completed.  Does not matter the shape as long as the disk is held to very small tolerance to minimize movement. 

Q:  The 0.010" thickness would pretty much eliminate anything other than metal - Al, Brass, or steel - for the alignment plate as designed.
A:  That is what I think too..but you present an interesting thought...

Q:  But could you instead use a 1" Fostner bit to cut a 0.010" or so deep round impression into a thicker piece of high temp fiberglass (or maybe a plate of your FRP) as the register? 
A:  The FRP is very unstable when heated and after going through a heat cycle or two I think the FRP would warp too much to be of any use.  Additionally the FRP, from my supplier, in a maximum of 1/8".  Way too thin to be used as a base for any length of time.

Q:  Maybe put a smaller hole (1/4"?) through the center of the impression so you can poke the disks out after the ink has set?
A:  GREAT idea !! 


Q: You didn't give center-to-center dimensions on the 1" holes. How accurate must those dimension be held?
A:  The drawing is what I would like to do.  I can make my printing template to match what the end result of the jig is if needed.  Make the small corrections in the printing template once the jig if finalized and use the adjusted printing template from that point on.   The spacing between centers would be 1.135".  1.01 for the hole and .125 for spacing between holes, right?

Q: Would the Fostner bit in FRP work for alignment? Can you live with the manual alignment possible by the 1st method? 
A:  A Fostner bit in some high heat resistant wood could work.  But the FRP would not.  Absorbes heat too much and would warp after only a couple uses.  That is why I am looking at metal.  I think it would withstand the heat better.
And now you have me thinking another direction too...Find someone that can take a piece of .030 metal, and cut out .010 from the metal as I need to put the disks in to.  But then back to finding a good metal worker too. 

I am leaving my house now, and not sure when you will get this but if you would like to talk via phone, to help understand what I am missing that would be fine with me.  My number is:  510.701.3311   -Scott


Offline EIEIO

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Re: Need some help in making a template for dye sub items.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 10:13:42 am »
Scott - I just got this. Sorry for the delay.

Aluminum comes in different tempers, some made soft so it can be bent without cracking. The softer Aluminums are also easy to machine. A piece of 1/4" thick plate would be pretty stable. But putting 0.010" depressions into it would leave your round Al part in contact with the main plate (heat transfer) and without any flex. I'd think the heat transfer from disk to plate might interfere with your process.

If you instead put a deeper depression in the 1/4" Al plate, say 0.070" deep, then added a circlular high-temp rubber pad (or washer) into it, maybe 1/16" thick, you could get insulation between the disk and the alignment plate, and also get the effect of the rubber pad maintaining pressure between the heat plate and the disk across the multiple disks.

We have a metal supplier in town who has Al plate and a small machine & bending shop. I don't have any good idea of what he'd charge, but I'd guess it would be in the $100 range.

EX-21 arrived 2-1-2013!
Porter-Cable PCB370SS in the corner
Lancaster Ohio
Ray Hayes - RMHayes@RMHayes.US
www.RMHayes.US

 

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