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General Category => General Scroll Saw Talk => Topic started by: malc on December 07, 2011, 10:58:18 am
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Is there any real advantage in buying an expensive saw for the avarage scroller? Mine cost about ?100 and seems to cut fine. If I splashed out ?500 would my cutting be five times better? I know that skill makes up a considerable proportion, so how much does the saw add?
Malc
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After having my $500 DeWalt saw for about 14 years, I had thought that it would be the last saw I would ever want or need. How could I get much better? Unfortunately, it began to show signs of wear and I knew it was time for a new saw. However, after reading how so many people were having trouble with the newer DeWalts and the poor customer service stories, I decided to go with an Excalibur. Everything I read on it was positive. It was a step up, as it cost me about $900. But I didn't want to get something that would be troublesome to me, living in a more remote area and needing it for making my living.
I took the plunge in March and got the Excalibur 21" saw. I was totally AMAZED at how much better I cut on it. My partner felt the same way. The difference between the mid-priced DeWalt and the higher priced Excalibur was incredible. It was smoother, easier to control and turn, and had much less front to back blade movement which made precision cutting so much easier. I couldn't believe the difference.
There isn't a day that goes by that I am not happy that I decided on moving up. I often am asked to recommend a saw for a couple hundred dollars for 'beginners.' It is so difficult for me to do so because there are so many issues with them that make their scroll saw experience less pleasant. I know not everyone has the money to spend on a upper end saw, but it is unfortunate to have someone who is enthusiastic get a lower end saw only to be frustrated and discouraged.
Overall, scroll sawing is a "cheap hobby" as far as woodworking is concerned. You need little tools besides a drill press, blades and a saw to make a wide variety of projects. Wouldn't it be best to invest in the best equipment you could afford to make your hobby pleasant and trouble free? I think so.
That's my take on it! :D I am interested to see what others say.
Sheila
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Nice write up Sheila, You know the mess I went through :) I thought I wanted the Excaliber too but had so much trouble with it that I took it back and bought a new Delta (which is the same as the DeWalt) It is working fine for me. The question is do you suppose the Excaliber that I and cyber
Ghost bought were LEMONS? We bought them from the same place. I wanted to buy local because of price, service, parts etc?
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My take on this....
I know full well I will never have the scroll skills of people like Steve, Dgman, Sheila Landry and others.
I learned on a less expensive saw and found the projects I like best to do, so I geared my 'upgrade' to that end. I bought my 788 three years ago by stretching my resources and am glad I did.
Do I wish I could afford a better saw? Sure! Do I really NEED a better saw? Not unless my 788 starts to fail and what I will do at that time I do not have any idea.
I was raised by a father who was a farm boy and became an aircraft mechanic. His philosophy was to buy the best tools you can afford to serve the purpose for which you intend to use them. I have followed that most of my life and have no regrets with my tool purchases.
What I am trying to convey is to first decide what you really hope to accomplish with your hobby. Decide what will serve you best in that pursuit, make your decision and then purchase the tools that will help you achieve your goal.
When selecting transportation it would sure be nice to drive a Mercedes to the mall but a Chevy and even a Mini will get you there. You just have to decide how comfortable you want to be during the trip.
~~~GrayBeard~~~
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Judy - I do think that there was an unusual problem with your saw. While I am sure that they are not all perfect, I am really happy with mine. I bought mine from Seyco in Texas even though I live here in Nova Scotia. I had heard about his service and he has a reputation of helping others that I haven't seen equal. To me, that was worth a lot. I am happy you have a good saw (I did like my DeWalt too until it started normal wearing out) and wish you lots of years of great service with it. I only hope if something goes wrong that you won't be out on a limb.
Greybeard - I agree with you 1000 percent. I also grew up with limited means and we fixed stuff and kept it working rather than disposing of it and getting new each time it broke. I still live by that philosophy and it was a HUGE decision for me to spend the money to upgrade (as you see, it took almost 15 years!) The pattern business is very volatile as you can imagine with the economy and all the free patterns available. I have gone through some personal hardships in the past several years and it was very hard for me to get a saw like that. But it is my business and I am glad I did.
I just hate to recommend something to a new person where I know they will have the propensity for having hardship. If it weren't for DeWalt's crummy reputation for customer service, I may have got another one. But I just can't recommend it after hearing so many instances of them not caring. I am happy that Judy is doing well with her saw and my fingers are crossed for her. :)
I agree that getting the best we can afford is a good guide to follow. Only we know what we want out of the hobby and know how much cost we can justify.
Sheila
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Sheila and everyone....
It is all about 'finding your niche'! And being happy with your decision.
Some need a 'production tool' and others like me need a 'hobby tool'.
I neither need or desire a 'production tool' for what I do. I will not create a new 'career' for my self at my age with the resulting restrictions and hassles. If I decide not to scroll for a few weeks and do something else I am perfectly happy with that. I would hate to be 'under the gun' to produce orders for deadlines. Too many years of that in the printing business!
I just came home from the vet's office with the kittens. It just so happens that the vet who owns the clinic is also a woodworker. I took a portrait of a kitten to show him and he immediately asked if I would like to display it and leave some cards. So I agreed. What may come of it I do not know but I will not be a servant to my saw and 'customers'.
IF they want something done and I can accommodate them that is fine. If they call me on Monday and want a custom portrait of their pet on Friday...No Go!
With me this is and always will be a hobby...NOT a business.
Everyone should sit down and truly think through what they want from this hobby, Satisfaction, Acclaim or Money and choose their tools according to that end and their resources at the present, not according to what they THINK they might be able to have in the future
~~~GrayBeard~~~
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Nice write up Sheila, You know the mess I went through :) I thought I wanted the Excaliber too but had so much trouble with it that I took it back and bought a new Delta (which is the same as the DeWalt) It is working fine for me. The question is do you suppose the Excaliber that I and cyber
Ghost bought were LEMONS? We bought them from the same place. I wanted to buy local because of price, service, parts etc?
Judy My excaliber was working just find up to know I took mine in to get fix and if this is not fix right i'm going to ask for a new one or get my money back and then get a excaliber from sysco or whatever that website was again. That dewalt dw788 type 2 scroll saw year 2010 model was working fine for long time until around april of this year when it started to viberate and getting loud just like the excaliber was doing when not at all the way full speed. When the dewalt at full speed that where it gets loud and start to viberate. I wish I could get a laser scroll saw....
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You guys know me, I sometimes go against the grain.........
I say NO, it will not make you a better scroller. Not even twice as much better not to mention five times. Only practice will do that. I have done, and seen others do some very fine work with the less expensive saws.
There is nothing in the world that will improve your cutting and finishing more than education and practice, practice, practice! I have owned three saws over the years (I now have a DW 788) and each one has made cutting easier and somewhat faster but, I can't say any of them made my work any better.
No saw, blade, or finishing method will make a project any better than what you are doing now. You just need experience.
You can get the education you need on this site just by asking questions now, you just need to get some saw dust on your knees. ;)
Just my two cents worth.
Rog
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Last year, when i bought my first scrollsaw, I thought: "There's a great deal (90$ (regular price 229$) fo a Mastercraft). I'll buy it to try." I scroll few weeks and it was really bad. I went to the store and they gave me another one. Same thing. I thought " Ok, I'm probably the problem". I took a class and I realise that I wasn't the problem... The scrollsaw was the real problem. So now I'm looking to buy a new one. So I lost near 100$ because I wanted to learn with a cheap one. So, in my opinion, I think Sheila is right. A quality tool will make the hobby more interesting and easier to learn.
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I agree 100% what Shelia and GrayBeard said and even agree, for the most part, with Roger. Nothing can replace practice, however, I do think a better saw makes cutting more fun and allows you to concentrate on the cutting instead of fighting the saw, therefore, makes you a better scroller in that regard.
I completed my first Segmentation Intarsia using a Dremel vibrating type SS that I had since I was a young kid and I knew, after that, I needed something better if I was to enjoy scroll sawing.
I was able to try the RBI Hawk and the Hegner 22? at the LA Co. Fair in 1991, it was the only two saws there and both saws were a pleasure to use. I choose the Hegner over the Hawk, even though it was considerably more expensive, because it had a quick tension release up front, less vibration and the reputation for quality, according to everything I read.
I used the 22? Multimax for a couple of years and was very satisfied, however that was before I got the opportunity to try a Hegner, 20" Polymax. (The Polymax is Hegner?s Commercial Grade scroll saw and is used in shops where they run 12 hours a day every day and comes with a manufacturer?s seven-year warranty.) After using it, along with my 22? SS for a couple of weeks, I was convinced it was a much better saw and made the trade.
The Polymax was eight years old when I acquired it, but looked like it came straight from the factory and had never been used. I?ve had it Seventeen years and have made over 400 Intarsia?s with it and have never had to replace any parts. I gave up the variable speed motor and the quick-change blade changing mechanism I had on the 22? saw for a heavy duty, quiet and smooth cutting machine.
The Polymax?s mainframe parts are all cast Iron. And, the saw weighs 104 pounds, which deadens almost all vibration. It has two stroke settings, which gives it a total of eight speeds. The long stroke is best for nearly all scroll work and the short stroke provides increased sawing control and smoothness when cutting thin and light materials, such as wood veneer or single layer sheet metal.
Bottom Line, Is there any real advantage in buying an expensive saw for the average scroller?
For the average scroller, that only scrolls occasionally, probably would be happy with a GOOD quality saw, however, I think having a better quality Scrollsaw, that has never needed service, is a real advantage and has made my scrolling much more pleasurable.
That said, I feel the experience I?ve acquired over the past 19 plus years of making Intarsia?s is what gets the credit for the quality of my work.
Would I make the purchase again? You bet, in a minute. I?ve made enough from it to pay for it many times over.
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Has anyone ever had a Delta, made by Dewalt. I have a chance to buy a 20 inch delta with stand and light for $400.00. Any feed back would be nice.
gene
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Hey Gene, That Delta model is exactly like the DeWalt. Just different color and emblems. That is a great price!
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Gene,
I have the Delta 40-690, the clone of the 788. It's my first saw so I have nothing to compare it to but it works fine for me.
Don't know how the repair facilities are now that Delta is separated from Dewalt but Dewalt parts should fit the Delta. Does anyone know about the Delta repair facilities?
Jim
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As you've read there are advantages in an expensive saw. I would have a top of the line saw if I had the money to do it.
When I started out I started with a used Dremel 3 1/2" blade saw, then updated to a Pro-Tech 16" saw (twice), then to a Craftsman 18" saw and now currently to a used DeWalt 20" saw. I've stuck with the hobby over the years so I always wanted a better saw. I have made very little money over the years, but I've made a number of people (mostly family) happy with gifts.
I think you'll either be happy with where you're at with your saw or eventually find you'll want and need that more expensive saw as you progress in your hobby.
Karl
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Are there any main problems with the delta that i need to look out for? I really need a deep throat saw for some of the cutting I want to do this winter. And I am really thinking that this saw would be the one for me. Thanks for all the input on the saw.
gene
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I got a "cheap" saw and used it six months and quit for five years. I bought another and did nothing but cut out 2X4 toys, between 2 and 3,000 a year. Wore it out in about two and a half years, quit again for a couple of years. Scroll saws are not for me. Then I made a mistake and tried out a Hegner at the State fair and what I discovered the thrill was of doing it right with the right equipment. I was not at the time very good at what I was trying to do but I became better because I did upgrade. There is also a saying,"Buy the best you can afford and save for what you want". Until I got the best I didn't know what scrolling was. Don't hold yourself back because you don't think you have the skill of someone else. Use them as a mentor and get as good as they are. Also remember 99% of the people who will be looking at your work has never seen your mentors, so to them your are great. Who knows, maybe you are.... Good Luck
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geneVG, I have only used my Delta a short time but so far it is just great! I did put lock tite on the set screws in the blade chuck.
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I started with a really cheap saw and decided that I was not going to learn to scroll. We returned it and bought the Delta from Lowes, which at that time was the great part of $200. Wow - what a difference. I used that for a number of years until I sold enough pieces to a gallery to buy a used Hegner from Craigslist for about 1/2 the new price. WOW!!!! Changed the arm for the one with the quick release at the front and added the flexible blower. Amazing saw. Last year I found a Hegner, again on Craigslist - for $200! We exchanged emails and he verified it worked - he just wasn't interested is using it. I actually got it $200!! It is 12 years newer than my older one, included the light, stand and foot pedal (which I don't use). The table is more regularly shaped, and I switched the newer arm and blower from my older one. This saw makes my older Hegner seem difficult to use. It is AMAZING. Now, can I follow a line any more accurately - well, um... at least I can't blame the saw any more. I am still not great at many things, but scrolling is actually fun! It runs as smooth as silk, and I have to set a timer so I don't sit for too long at a time.
All that said, I wouldn't want to pay full price for any of the new saws especially since it's my hobby. Finding a super deal - now that's a different thing altogether!
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I cant say I went really cheep,,kinda a higher range saw in the Craftsmans line of saws. I didnt wanna blow alot of bucks to see if I liked scroll sawing...Well,,with my day job,milling on the side, and tryin to get a Daughter tru collage, I dont have alot of time to scroll,,but I enjoy ever min. I get to sit down and relax in the shop ...
I'm saving for a Excalibur but what haunting me about getting one should I go with a 30-inch Excalibur , or the 21 incher.. I wonder how many projects other have done they wished they had a bigger throat depth...And wonder if you can get by with using a spiral blade to without having to go longer....
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As you can see Malc, there are a variety of opinions on this topic. The same question can be asked in just about any hobby. Is there an advantage to the weekend golfer to own a set of top of the line clubs? Is there an advantage to the casual fisherman to own an expensive bass boat? Pick your hobby and you can ask the same question and apply the same logic to the answers. Scrolling isn't all that much different, in this context.
Bottom line is it all comes down to what priority you place on the enjoyment of your hobby. I think the more time you spend at a hobby, the more benefit you gain from top quality equipment. It may not necessarily make you better (whatever "better" is to you), but it can make it much more enjoyable. If it's more enjoyable, then you are more likely to spend more time doing it. If you spend more time doing it, then you will be more inclined to tackle more challenging projects. As you challenge yourself, your skills improve. Did the saw make you better? Maybe not in and of itself, but perhaps it provided some incentive for you to improve.
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I'm am sure there are many advantages to a high end saw. My problem is I don't have high end $$$ to spend on one LOL. All my saving goes toward my wood turning. I started with a hand-me-down single speed craftsman. And upgraded to a variable speed porta cable. It isn't the greatest saw in the world But I can do decent work with it because I have gotten used to it. Perhaps one day I will upgrade to a Great saw. But for now I'm OK with my mediocre equipment LOL. Some of the greatest masterpieces of all time were created with primitive instruments. The saw can only do so much.....
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I just got the Excalibur EX 16, it is a much quieter machine than the old one i had, and the top arm lifts up so you can feed the blade down through the drill holes instead of trying to twist your work to an angle where you can feed the blade in from underneath, that alone had saved me hours of time on the first project I made on it. I changed holes (and they were very small holes) and refirred the blade and was cutting again in about 20 seconds, I'm sure when i get more used to it I'll cut that time down even more. With the old saw sometimes that procedure took over 3 mins and I even bent a few blades when i had trouble feeding it up from underneath. This saw was best investment I've made for long time. Hope that helps
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I got a "cheap" saw and used it six months and quit for five years. I bought another and did nothing but cut out 2X4 toys, between 2 and 3,000 a year. Wore it out in about two and a half years, quit again for a couple of years. Scroll saws are not for me. Then I made a mistake and tried out a Hegner at the State fair and what I discovered the thrill was of doing it right with the right equipment. I was not at the time very good at what I was trying to do but I became better because I did upgrade. There is also a saying,"Buy the best you can afford and save for what you want". Until I got the best I didn't know what scrolling was. Don't hold yourself back because you don't think you have the skill of someone else. Use them as a mentor and get as good as they are. Also remember 99% of the people who will be looking at your work has never seen your mentors, so to them your are great. Who knows, maybe you are.... Good Luck
Mentors heck you could even get better then a mentors if you try heck you could be 1000's times better then steve good......... use the right tool for the job.
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I cant say I went really cheep,,kinda a higher range saw in the Craftsmans line of saws. I didnt wanna blow alot of bucks to see if I liked scroll sawing...Well,,with my day job,milling on the side, and tryin to get a Daughter tru collage, I dont have alot of time to scroll,,but I enjoy ever min. I get to sit down and relax in the shop ...
I'm saving for a Excalibur but what haunting me about getting one should I go with a 30-inch Excalibur , or the 21 incher.. I wonder how many projects other have done they wished they had a bigger throat depth...And wonder if you can get by with using a spiral blade to without having to go longer....
Go with the ex-21 excalibur scroll saw. unless you want to pull your growns then get the ex-30.
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I started with a Craftsman $125 saw, had to take the first one back because it wouldn't even run... used the second one once and took it back as well. Invested in an EX16, and I love it. If I had kept the Craftsman, I wouldn't be scrolling.
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i'm thinking about getting my money back for my ex-21 scroll saw. I took in to get fix but they have not got around to it they told me that acmetools is backup 3 weeks. If they don't get it fix this time i'm going to take it back and ask for my money or a new saw this is BS.
My dewalt is going to H*** on me.
If this ex-21 is not fix this time around i'm just going to ask for my money or a new say if it not fix i'm just going to come back and delete my account on here.
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I've enjoyed reading this thread. So here's my 2 cents. I started on an 18" Dremel. Loved it but certain projects were very difficult. Portraits, in particular. It was hard to feed and change the blade. The vibration was enough to damage the delicate cuts whether I was using a flat blade or a spiral. The aggrivation factor was overwhelming sometimes. So I felt limited by my saw on the types of projects that I could do. Don't get me wrong, I loved my Dremel, but I felt there was more I could do.
Getting my EX21 gave me confidence to try more involved projects that I would never had attempted with my old saw. Bevel cuts and inlays became so much easier to do and I could get through the most involved portrait without wanting to smash it against the wall. Everyone who knew what I was doing comented on how much better I was getting at it.
I was a single mother with 2 kids in college. I needed the extra money and both my saws got me there. I do believe my prices and my sales increased after getting the EX21. The quality of my projects did improve.
My Excalibur was used every day for several hours. I did several shows a year and had to make a living. Now, my saw is like an old friend that I visit a couple times a week. I never regretted spending the extra money, although I aggonized over it before I actually did it. I would do it again in a heart beat.
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...........The Polymax?s mainframe parts are all cast Iron. And, the saw weighs 104 pounds, which deadens almost all vibration. It has two stroke settings, which gives it a total of eight speeds.....Bottom Line, Is there any real advantage in buying an expensive saw for the average scroller?........
I started with a $200 scroll saw that cut OK but broke within a year. I then bought a new DeWalt(Type 2) and it lasted 20 months before falling apart, literally. I then bought a new Hegner Polymax and have had it 2 years and it still runs fine. I also bought a used (25 year old ) Hegner Multimax and it also works well. The Dewalt was smooth and cut well but just did not last. I could cut OK on all of the saws , so for me, durability is the difference.
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I started on a one speed pin end craftsman saw and always knew of better ones and wanted to move up. For Christmas, I got new craftsman that is variable speed. Used it just a little but makes a BIG difference. I think an expensive saw is better but do not know up to what point that is true.
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How i came to owning the saw i have now
I started out on a craftsman single speed pin end blade saw also.
It worked for what i needed at the time. (cutting 3/4" and up wood)
Then one day a fellow co worker of mine, (and a woodworker) brought in some
intricate pieces of work (wall plaque's).
I was amazed at the detailed fine line cuts, I questioned him on how he cut them and what type of saw he was using etc.
He told me he use's a craftsman varible speed saw, with plain end blades, he also told me where i could order these type's of patterns, blades, plywood, etc.
I did some researching on the varible speed saws, which led me to Rick Hutcheson's website, which led me to buying a delta Q3.
I found the saw at a local tool sales business and ordered one from them (they didn't have one in stock at the time).
I purchased the saw at that time for 375.00 with stand and never looked back it's been a very reliable saw and does everything i've asked of it to this day.
As for the craftsman I just gave it to my brother-n-law this past month for his woodshop. (He works with thicker woods)
Here is Ricks website: (Steve also has a link to it on his blog)
http://www.scrollsaws.com/
Tink
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gene, I've only had the Delta 40-690 for about 9 months so it hasn't had much wear and tear. I did take it into the repair centre for knocking at higher speeds. They fixed that but couldn't get the blade to stay perpendicular to the table through it's stroke. I was able to partly fix that problem. http://stevedgood.com/community/index.php?topic=6646.0 (http://stevedgood.com/community/index.php?topic=6646.0)
The blade still moves forward and backward as it strokes up and down, between 1/16" and 1/32". That doesn't seem like much but I can feel the workpiece try to move back and forth when I'm cutting slowly. It doesn't seem to affect the cut, I just have to hold it a bit tighter.
The repair shop tightened one of the pivot bolts for the upper arm with the result that the arm stays up by itself. There is a click as it locks into place but it can be lowered relatively easily. One day I'll work on a spring assisted lift like the Easy Lift by jimdandy.
The markings on the saw indicate it is a Type 1 but I doubt it was made at the same factory as the Dewalt 788 Type 1 Saw.
Overall, I'm very satisfied with the saw and don't regret purchasing it.
Sorry I didn't reply sooner but hope this helps.
Jim
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People have been doing quality work with far less in tool quality for 1000's of years. I started with a Ryobi then I switched to a craftsman 16. Now I have an EX21 and am looking at an Eclipse.
My recommendation is to buy the best that you can afford, but I agree with earlier posts on practice and technique development. The equipment has not made my work better, my techniques have become more refined which helped in speed and confidence to work with more advanced patterns.
The other thing to consider with a saw purchace is to determine the usage of it. A hobby saw that sees the light of day 2 or 3 times a year does not warrant the need to buy top of the line. A low grade saw will not stand up to the riggors of 5 or more hours a day usage. Maintenance and customer service also come into play here. Machines wear and do break down from time to time. It is nice to know you can get parts in a timely manner and advice from the manufacturer that is sound.
With the info from the forum, take this and make the best decision on what your usage will be. Then practice and see the results you create. You only have to make the one that you create the item for happy, not all of us.