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General Category => General Scroll Saw Talk => Topic started by: countryscroller on December 27, 2012, 02:29:33 pm
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I have been inspired to start a new technique with the scroll saw of Marquetry. I watch the Gwinnett Woodworkers on youtube. They had a segment on Marquetry. They led me to this site -> http://www.schurchwoodwork.com/index.html (http://www.schurchwoodwork.com/index.html) I was going to start with the starter kits they have and purchase a DVD on the subject. They have a veneering and marquetry kit and DVD. What is the difference between Veneering and Marquetry? Should I purchase both kits and DVD's or are they basically the same? Thanks for the advice!
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Hi, Countryscroller, Veneering is just that. Sheets of veneer on a base timber such as pine to enhance the piece. Marquetry is veneering with varied colors and shades make up pictures of scenery or flower patterns. You can also have parquetry which is much the same as marquetry only this time the veneers form geometric designs. I used to make church furniture which involved all three types. Sometimes we used bone, ivory, and mother of pearl.
Hope this is of some use to you Countryscroller.
Rob Roy.
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Thanks Rob, I plan on getting both DVD's Paul Schurch has and the starter kit. I hope to get the hang of it and possibly make a video on a piece in the future. Thanks again!
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Wow, this is weird. I was just watching some youtube videos on marquetry tonight myself. I was thinking it might make an interesting alternative when it is either too cold or too hot to get out into my garage shop to work with my saw. The videos I saw showed people cutting the veneer with a knife and not a scroll saw. Veneer is pretty thin stuff. I think you'd need several layers to cut it with a scroll saw - but then I confess I am really not sure.
I am going to look at the vids you mentioned. On the ones I saw it looked like the finished piece just laid on top of a backer board and was not inlaid. I'm not even sure if that impression is right to be honest. The subject has piqued my interest though. I usually lose about 3 months a year of shop time to cold and hot. It would be nice to have something to fill the gaps besides dreaming of my next projects (or fretting that I can't get to them).
Please let me know if you like the kits, Country.
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Yeah I guess Paul Schurch decided to use a scroll saw instead of a knife to do marquetry. I plan on getting the kit within the next couple weeks and will post it on here when I get it.
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Hi there Countryscroller, if you are cutting thin veneer with a scrollsaw. Stack cut it and put a piece of cardboard on the bottom as the very thin veneer will tear out on the underside if you intend keeping the bottom piece. Do the same if you are only cutting one piece.Good luck with it Dustin.
Rob Roy.
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Thanks for the tip Rob
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No problem Dustin, we are all here to help in any way we can. Glad the info was of use to you.
Rob Roy.
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Hi rob roy I just purchased a milescraft design kit and it comes supplied with inlay bits and patterns. the kit was the 1207 kit great buy if you have a router
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I too was interested in Marquetry. Some of those guys that do that are definitely artists. I liked that link you posted too. I added it to my bookmarks. Keep us posted on the kit and dvd you purchased. Look forward to watching your video on this subject.
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I bit the bullet and ordered a couple of DVDs from Jane Burke. Her method - what I know of it - utilizes an x-acto knife rather than the scroll saw. But my whole point in looking was that it is too cold out in the shop so this should work for me. Assuming I can do it anyway, lol. It'll be fun to try anyway. I also went to Woodcraft and picked up their wood identification set of veneers. I figured that was a relatively inexpensive way to get a variety of veneer woods to work with right off the bat.
I'm expecting the DVDs to get here on Friday. I'm really looking forward to trying this. I've been looking around the web and I am not sure what amazes me more - the work people do or the amount they charge for doing it! Little boxes for over $300 and pictures for $2,000 to $3,000 or more! I'm not in this for the money but holy cow. The work is really amazing though.
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Yes I see your point about the cold out in the workshop. I watched a video on youtube of Paul Schurch and he made a little jewelry box for $3,000! By the way I ordered the DVD's and a starter kit on his website. When I get it and work with it a bit, I will post a video. Good luck with your work, post stuff when you finish something.
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I figured we could compare notes and results. From what I have been reading, there are a lot of different ways to approach marquetry. It looks like a lot of "first projects" are simples leaves so maybe it won't take me too long to produce something halfway presentable (knocking wood). I can't do a video but I can post a picture.
I found a supply source that might interest you. Their veneers are 3 mm thick which, at nearly 1/8", would probably be too thick for the x-acto knife process but might work just fine on the scroll saw. They have a lot of different woods in smallish quantities and a pretty large number of kits. Anyway, if interested, check out http://www.marquetryworld.com/ (http://www.marquetryworld.com/) .
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Ok that sounds good. Once I get the chance to work with it a bit and produce some projects, I may decide if scrolling it or x-acto knife is the way I want to go. Either way I just love the look of some piece people produce. Thanks for the link, I made me a bookmark so I may refer to that later on when I get some practice with it and maybe try thicker veneer. The thickness that Paul Schurch teaches is with thin stuff, like 1/42" thick. I ordered my DVD's and the starter kit, so it should be here in about a week. I will keep you posted on my experience with it. Thanks.
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OK, this is harder than it looks on the DVD! LOL, of course it is. The woman in the DVDhas been doing it for years. Little by little I am having some better luck (though nothing worthy of posting as of yet). The hard part is getting the exact fit. In the craft knife method, you cut the hole and then the piece that goes into the hole. Mine tend to be too big in some places and too small in others.
But I do have moments when it goes pretty well. They are just still too widely separated. ;) On the other hand, I have only been trying for four days. That's a bit early to expect mastery - or even basic competence. I'll keep it up. I am stubborn if nothing else. And the little successes are motivating. I did pick up some less expensive domestic veneer sheets in order to save my sample pack of exotics for when I will have more faith in my ability to use them well.
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Glad to hear you are giving it a try. I just received my starter kit and DVD's yesterday. Not done yet on the DVD's, but it looks like a challenge. I figure on watching them about 3 times each until I know the steps in even packet cutting and other techniques until I start actually working. My question is this. There are many ways to clamp the glue ups. You could use a vacuum press or other clamping methods. What do you find easiest? I don't have a vacuum press by the way.
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Heehee - you mean with all my vast experience? I have tried the glue up all of once so far. Just last night. My piece is a smally 4" x 4" thing with a so-so leaf. I cut a piece of scrap poplar to slightly larger than 4" square. I put a piece of waxed paper on that followed by my leaf (right side down). Then I put glue on a 4" x 4" piece of 1/4" plywood and then put that on top of the veneer (glue side down). Then I just squashed as many clamps on it as I could. I have seen and read more than once that you don't want to put the glue on the veneer itself, just on the plywood.
Actually, I did that twice. From what I have read and seen on the DVDs I got, you need to start by putting another piece of veneer on the back of the plywood first to keep it from warping when you add the front veneer. I have no idea how important that is but I didn't want to skip any steps. And I did see that mentioned more than once too so it seemed best to just do it that way.
As best as I can tell, it glued up just fine. It appears to be secure everywhere. Tonight I cut strips of veneer to glue on the four sides. When that has dried, I'll have a go at sanding it. I think after that, I will just rub on some danish oil and maybe add a couple of coats of lacquer.
This leaf isn't really worth the effort but I want to try going through the whole process with something I don't really care if I ruin somewhere along the way. That way I hope to avoid any surprises when I actually produce something I want to keep.
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Glad to hear it is working out for you. Were you using the scroll saw or just knife? I would like to see it when it is completely done. Thanks for the feedback.
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Here it is in all its glory, lol. Nothing too fancy, just cherry inside maple. But I think not too bad for my first week.
You about ready to give yours a go?
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Sorry, I didn't answer your question. It was all done with the x-acto knife except, of course, for the plywood underneath.
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Hey that looks great to me! If you plan on just using knife, the DVD I got that Paul Schurch teaches, he uses a "scalpel" and the difference is the blade is stronger and lasts longer that xacto. But great work. I plan on giving mine a go soon. There was patterns that came with the kit, but I am going to do something like you did first to get the hang of the process. I'm going to use my scroll saw and experience with the whole process of packet cutting and everything. Keep up the great work and I will be sure to post my experience as I go.
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Thanks for the tip. When I have a better idea of how well this is all going, I may look into it. I've been working on a turtle. It has a LOT of pieces. I had a couple of insights over the weekend on technique and things have been going better - not perfectly but better - ever since. It can still take up to 3 or 4 tries before I get a piece to fit right but that is becoming the exception more than the rule. Almost half the time now I even get it on the first try. So I am learning. AND it is becomming more like fun. :)
I will post the turtle when it is done but it won't get done until it warms up a little so I can cut a piece of plywood for it. It's supposed to warm up a little as the week goes on so that might not be a problem.
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I continue my practice. I think I am starting to figure this out at least a little bit. There are a lot of differnet techniques out there for even little things like gluing the cut out pieces into the background. I'm pretty much trying everything and figuring out what works best for me. Anyway, I finished my second little project (you're getting behind, Dustin!). Pretty happy with it especially since I learned so much doing it.
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Hi Becky, you've done an excellent job on that turtle. Very professional keep it up.
Rob Roy
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Wow Becky, I'm impressed!
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Excellent work Becky.
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That is great work! I have yet to turn out a project yet. Hoping to make one this week though. Glad for your success at this.
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Thanks everyone. With better success, this just keeps getting more fun. Still a challenge but rewarding.
Wow, I can't believe I impressed Dan! You're one of the main go-to guys on this forum because of your expertise in, well, just about everything. If you're impressed, I am switching from "pretty happy" to ouright proud of it! :) (that is a happy smiley, not a winking/kidding smiley)
Hey Dustin, one thing I want to share with you. I just learned this (after the turtle). Veneer has a front side and a back side. Obviously, I knew it had two sides (lol) but I didn't know there was a difference. The front side is the smoother one. If you have a fairly large sheet and hold it at one side with the grain going crosswise, it will droop a lot more if the front side is on top. All of my pieces are pretty narrow so that trick doesn't work for me but that's what the book said.
The front side will take finish better. Perhaps more importantly, the grain changes from front side to back side so if you mix and match your pieces, they will look different in the finished piece. Some of the pieces in my turtle look darker and others look lighter. I suspect I didn't always cut from the same side of the veneer.
I've got another project nearly done (just needs the strips on the edges, sanding and finishing) and I didn't know about the front and back business before that one either so I'll just have to see how it comes out. I hope to have it done later this week.
Anyway, the front and back business is something you probably want to be aware of when you're building your packets for the scroll saw.
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Ok thank you very much for the tip. Your projects have all turned out great so far. I will keep you posted on my experience.
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Here is my first go at it. It isn't finished, just sitting inside the backer. I used my scroll saw to make it. The steps for going the scroll saw route are a little tricky, but with some more practice, I hope to be producing some better stuff.
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Looking good, Dustin! I am looking forward to seeing it glued upand finished.
It does look like you lost a tip of one leaf (unless that's just the picture?). I have lost more tips than I want to talk about so I know that feeling. In the knife method, they say to put a bit of blue tape, or masking tape or whatever you're using in the areas with sharp points like that. I am not sure if that is supposed to help prevent the breakage or just to help keep track of the piece after it breaks. Maybe both. Do you use any tape on the veneer surface with the scroll saw? If not, it might be worth a try. Of course, if that is just a shadow on your photo, never mind!
I have completed another piece but before taking a picture I got all soft and gave it to someone who really liked it. I'll ask for a picture. It was a fairly simple rose and, as I suspected, I did use both front and back sides of my veneer for the picture side. I guess it was good enough though as it inspired someone else to offer to pay me to make a set a coasters. Not bad after having just completed three small projects!
Meanwhile, I bit the bullet and am taking a try at sand shading. Hot sand in a frying pan smells bad. And it is tricky to get the shading where I want it without burning the veneer to a crisp. Like everything else, this will take practice.
Keep it up, Dustin. You're off to a good start. It's getting easier for me and I am sure it will for you too.
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As Becky says,it does look like you lost the tip of a leaf, but apart from that it looks pretty good to me, for a first attempt I think it's marvelous.
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Yeah I did, I can fix it though. There is a tape called "gum tape" that I use. It came in the kit and it is supposed to keep the veneer from breaking. I guess I didn't have any on that point. Oh well, just a minor imperfection. Also I didn't know if you knew Becky, but veneer expands when it sees water. If you use a water based glue, any places where the pieces don't come together perfectly or just the saw kerf, it should close them up. Thanks for the feed back and tips.
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One of the things I read (I think it was the tutorial from the American Marquetry Society) said to put a little glue on the back and rub it into each joint line. I tried that and it does seem to do as you describe. You still have to be pretty close though. It won't hide a big gap. And yes, of course I tried! LOL
Still experimenting with sand shading. I made one lotus flower but overdid it. I'm trying again and shooting to be more subtle. I also take a copy of the pattern over to the stove now too so I can make sure I'm doing it in the right spot. I had shade on places where no shade had any business being in my first attempt.
One thing I learned is that fine sand seems to work better. I got some coarse sand at first. It smelled really bad when heated, took a long time to get hot and took a long time to cool down afterward. It also just seemed to get hotter and hotter if you left it on for a while. The fine sand doesn't stink and heats/cools faster. It seems to stay at a more even temperature however long you leave it on the stove and it's easier to push pieces into too. I just got fine (almost powder), white aquarium sand from a pet supply store. That tip is worth about $5 and an extra trip to the store. :)
Got any new projects going yet, Dustin?
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Thanks for the update. I actually had two really nice pieces just about done, and when I went to glue it up, disaster struck. I was trying to do to much at once. I just got done with a piece today. I still have to sand it and give it a sealing and then a clear coat. I don't know if you mentioned it, but how do you glue up? I have been taught to use a vacuum press. I just went to Walmart and got a Ziploc vacuum sealer system. It is about $40, cheaper than a real vacuum press for marquetry, but very durable. My first experience of using it today was very successful. I will post an image as soon as I get the piece completely done. Note: the image I will post is similar to the one I already posted, but that one is one that got messed up in a glue up operation the other day.
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That's a great idea! Never even crossed my mind. I've read about the vacuum sealing but they all said it was expensive so I just dismissed it. You thought outside the box for sure and came up with a good one!
Since my cut pieces often provide part of the pattern for the next piece, I do gluing as I go. I squeeze a minimal amount of glue on a piece of waxed paper and use a toothpick to run some glue around my window (the hole in the background veneer). I only put glue where the new piece touches either the background veneer or an already placed piece. I insert the piece and then, as mentioned earlier, I rub a little extra glue into the joints from the back side. If needed, I stick a piece of blue tape over that for a few minutes until it sets. By the time I am done, everything is glued to another piece, the background veneer or both. Then I sand the back so I have a smooth surface ready to glue to the substrate piece (plywood, mdf, whatever).
Before I do that (glue the project piece), I glue another piece of veneer to the back of the substrate, put a piece of waxed paper over the veneer and add cauls. Then I clamp the heck out of it. After about an hour or so, I unclamp and trim the excess veneer. Then I put glue on the other side of the substrate and attach the project piece and repeat with the waxed paper, cauls and clamps. After that I trim the excess and glue strips to the sides. I just "clamp" that with blue tapestretched tight. I do two opposite edges first then trim them. Then I do the other edges and trim them. I am still working on the best way to trim the excess from the sides. I've had some problems with that.
I'd like to hear more about how the vacuum press works and how you use it if you don't mind explaining.
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No not at all, I would be glad to explain. I think I am starting to get the gest of the whole process now. I am going to make a video on the whole process very soon. I will cover how the press works. I have a couple more items I use during glue up that you didn't mention, but arn't neccessities. I will cover most everything in the video. It is easier for me to do that than type a book on here lol. Look for it in the next week. I will post it in this subject.
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Here is my first completed project. The leaf that I posted before was unfinished and when I did glue up, it kinda got destroyed, so this is my new and improved one. Hope ya'll like it!
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Nice work Dustin, congratulations!
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Yep, nice work Dustin.
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Thanks. I figure the more I work with it, they will start turning out.
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Looks great! Getting that first one under your belt feels pretty good, doesn't it?
If I remember right, you said your kit came with a number of patterns. Any thoughts yet on what you'll try next?
I watched your video on the vacuum process you used for that portrait. Is that how you do your marquetry as well? It looks like it would be hard to keep everything aligned correctly while you wrestle it into that bag. I am curious if it is as difficult as it looks and how you deal with that.
Congrats on a successful first project!
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Thank you Becky, and yeah it feels good to finally produce something. The kit I got did come with patterns, this leaf is actually a part of one of the patterns just to try. I used the vacuum sealer system for the marquetry yes. It is actually not as hard as it may look. Marquetry the way I do it with the scroll saw just has a heck of a process involved. I plan on making a video on this project of the leaf to show how I do it. Thanks again Becky!
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I look forward to seeing the video. The scroll saw process does seem more complicated but at least you know the pieces will fit together. :)
As you know, I have been experimenting with sand shading. I finished the cutting and have got it glued onto a piece of plywood as of tonight. Tomorrow I will add the sides. I hope to get that done early enough to be able to wipe on a little oil before the end of the day. I hope to have a picture by later on in the week.
I'm also still trying to get a picture of my third project (rose) so I can post it.
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I have a little more to shoot for the video, then it will be up directly in about 2 to 3 days. Can't wait to see your projects!
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Here it is! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoZhpEt07eA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoZhpEt07eA)
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I just finished watching the video. That process is definitely more complicated but, as I posted before, at least you know the pieces will fit when you're done which has to be nice. :)
I tried using the gum tape to reinforce mine but thought it was a sticky, nasty mess and just went with the blue tape to reinforce key areas. OTOH, I know exactly where my key areas are and you don't. Using that much blue tape might be a problem if you had to put it all over everything. Just (by the way) a tip re the blue tape, if you pull it off at a 45 degree angle to the veneer grain, it is less likely to cause damage to the veneer. If you pull it off straight, it is more likely to bring a few fibers with it and sometimes rather a lot of them. At least that has been my experience.
One of these days I will have to do a border. I need to try the resin glue too. Just using wood glue, I have had concerns in final glue up about the piece moving a little. That would make my borders wonky. It sounds like the resin glue firms up faster. That might give me a better feeling about sticking it in the clamps and knowing it wouldn't slide around.
Thanks for the video. I learned some things from it.
At the risk of stealing a little of your thunder, I will update you on what I have been doing. Since I have a request for those coasters, I decided to try a polyurethane finish on my sand-shaded project. I don't imagine it will be any different than using another finish but it is better to be sure. I want the coasters to have more resistance to water since they are likely to get condensation on them. The coasters are on temporary hold because I couldn't see the lines on darker wood when I used my graphite paper. I have ordered some white transfer paper from cherry tree and it looks like it might be getting here tomorrow or the next day.
I've just gotten back from a business trip so I haven't done much of anything these past couple days except put a coat of poly on my sand shaded project. But I did finally make a big enough pest of myself to get a picture of my rose. The problem areas look glaring to me but I am posting a close up so you can see it, warts and all. It's still a learning process after all.
The poly process will take longer because of the longer drying time between coats but I will post a pic of that when I get the top done (I don't take a picture of the back side so don't need to get that done before posting it). Speaking of which, does he not tell you to put a piece of veneer on the back of your projects? That was one surprise in your video because that has been a universal in everything I have read.
Anyway, here's the rose.
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Thanks for watching Becky! That rose turned out great too. Well, I would've put a piece of veneer on the back too, but just for demonstration purposes and this is only my second time making something, I just wanted to make it simple just to practice with.
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Realy good video, very informative. thanks for all the time and effort you put into these videos.
Keith.
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Thank you Keith. I enjoy making them for you guys on here.
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Thanks, Dustin.
Honestly, I can't decide if the whole "put veneer on the back too" thing is propaganda from the sellers of veneer or a for-real thing but it has always been consistent. You'll have to report if the ones you made w/o veneer on the back end up warping. We'll get to the bottom of this yet! ;)
I got my white transfer paper in the mail today and took one more step in my coaster project. I quickly found that either mahogany veneer is very susceptable to splitting on the grain line or else my pattern encourages that (some pieces are very thin and they go all around so changing the grain orientation wouldn't help). I've had to glue a few very small pieces back in place already. I think I will be using lots of blue tape on this to try and just hold the thing together. I am thinking of just taping the whole thing like you did with some of your pieces in the video. I don't know if I'd have even thought of doing that before watching. I may also go with the gooey gum tape since it will probably cut through more easily than the blue tape.
I may not be using the same techinique as you, but you've definitely given me some ideas for improving my own efforts. Thanks for that. I am glad there are two of us experimenting with this and sharing tips and ideas. I think it saves us some missteps along the way. I hope you feel the same way.
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I think with using MDF as a substrate it shouldn't warp. Well I'm glad that you have learned from my techniques and I have from yours. Looking forward to seeing your coaster project. Thanks for the updates.
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Well, I am not happy with how this turned out but I promised a picture. I was worried about making the wood too dark with my sand shading but, in general, I didn't make it nearly dark enough. Somewhere between the sanding and the poly, it started looking like somebody with dirty hands had rubbed on it. There are a couple of spots that I had thought were way too dark that actually look the best now. I guess the lesson I take from this is to sand shade more aggressively.
In other negative news, I think I need to get some more practice in before attempting the coaster project. Problems followed problems and it just turned into a mess. I'll work on my shading which will also give me more practice at my cutting and allow me to experiment with a few ideas.
But, it's a learning process. Rome wasn't built in a day.The coaster project doesn't have a deadline so that's no big deal. I'll just keep plugging away. Anyway, here's what you get when you don't shade enough.
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It still looks pretty good to me, I haven't dared to attempt one yet.
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It looks fine to me too. Like you said it is a learning process. I'm in no hurry with this, I am just going through all the steps over and over with a simple project until I think I am ready to advance to something to this scale. It looks good though. Thanks for sharing.
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Beckey - it looks great to me. Did you do this with the scalpel and window method or with a scroll saw like CS? I like the shading effect. I'm sure that's a tough method to master and get what you had in mind. But its variability might be what makes it more interesting in the end.
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Thanks all. I didn't mean to imply I thought it was a total disaster, just that I didn't get the effect I wanted. I am trying the same pattern with the same species and more aggressive shading to see how that looks.
I have a very old stove in my basement (seriously, it looks like it might be from the 50's or even older). Instead of a dial for regulating the heat, it has push buttons. I think the proper temperature for doing this is between two of the buttons. On one setting it barely does anything except dry up the wood and make it shrink. One button higher and charcoal is but a blink away. I am playing around with building little piles of sand to raise the wood farther from the heat source with mixed results so far. It's been a few years since I played in a sandbox. ;)
EIEIO, I do it all with the window method and an x-acto knife... and frequent muttering, lol.
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I do a lot of "Double bevel inlay" and am wondering what the advantage is in using veneer. It seems a LOT harder to do it with veneer than the way I do it with 3/8" stock. Just curious.
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Well, I have never tried double bevel, but for me, veneer is easy to work with as to do say make a cut or a mitered corner or something. Just simply us a knife and cut it. It is also easy to fix mistakes. Also veneer is pretty cheap, it makes sense that thicker wood would be more expensive. I might give double bevel a try someday. I know David Marks has a DVD out on it and I may try it sometime.
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I was looking for something to do inside when it is too cold or too hot to be in my garage shop. I figured I could make the decorations during those months and the pieces they would go with when the weather moderated. I just need to gain the skills first.
Plus it is always fun to try something new and see what you can learn.
I don't know if any of that is what I would call an advantage. Certainly not a universal one if, for example, you have a more temperature-controlled shop. But it has been fun and since this is all just a hobby for me, that's what counts.
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I finally have my comparison picture. The one on the left is my first sand shading attempt. The one on the right shows my "more aggressive" shading.
The one on the right definitely has a few spots you could call "extra crispy." I knew that when I glued the pieces in. While I thought they were probably too dark, I remembered that in my first attempt, some of what I thought was too dark ended up looking pretty good. I don't think it worked out that way this time.
At the end, I think there are good spots and bad spots in both. Too bad I can't combine them.
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I think the right one looks great. I don't have much of an eye of how the sun would shine on it to give the shadow, but the shading looks good to me on them. Thanks for the update
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They both look swell, but I kind of like the shading in the earlier one. It is subtle and looks more natural to me.